RHR: The Results of Purple Meat on a Entire-Meals Weight loss plan, with Dr. Stephan van Vliet

On this episode, we talk about:

• Stephan’s background
• The entire-food matrix: not all vitamins are created equal
• Dr. van Vliet’s upcoming analysis: the results of crimson meat in a wholesome “complete meals” food regimen
• Why you ought to be cautious relating to restrictive diets
• The results of a vegan food regimen in kids
• The position of animal protein within the food regimen
• Can a food regimen excessive in animal protein trigger kidney issues?

Present notes:

• Twitter: @vanVlietPhD
• Google Scholar: Stephan van Vliet
• “Why You Ought to Eat Meat: My Look on The Joe Rogan Expertise,” by Chris Kresser
• “Development, physique composition, and cardiovascular and dietary threat of 5- to 10-y-old kids consuming vegetarian, vegan, or omnivore diets,” revealed in The American Journal of Scientific Diet
• “Complete Nutrient Hole Evaluation (CONGA): A technique for figuring out the general public well being significance of nutrient gaps,” revealed in Diet Evaluations

Hey, all people, Chris Kresser right here. Welcome to a different episode of Revolution Well being Radio. This week, I’m actually excited to welcome Dr. Stephan van Vliet as my visitor. Dr. van Vliet earned his PhD in kinesiology and group well being as an ESPEN fellow from the College of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and obtained postdoctoral coaching on the Heart for Human Diet within the Faculty of Drugs at Washington College in St. Louis.

He’s a member of the Duke Molecular Physiology Institute inside the Faculty of Drugs at Duke College. Dr. van Vliet’s analysis has carried out on the nexus of meals manufacturing techniques and human well being. In his work, Dr. van Vliet hyperlinks agricultural manufacturing techniques to the nutrient density of meals and their subsequent results on shopper metabolic well being utilizing high-throughput methods equivalent to metabolomics and proteomics.

Dr. van Vliet routinely performs interdisciplinary scientific and translational research to judge the results of dietary sample[s] and meals sources on protein and lipid metabolism, irritation, insulin motion, physique composition, and intracellular signaling pathways that regulate metabolic well being. And his work has been revealed within the American Journal of Scientific Diet, the Journal of Diet, and Frontiers in Sustainable Meals Programs.

I needed to speak to Dr. van Vliet as a result of I got here throughout an article he wrote about vegan diets and kids, and in addition turned conscious that he’s engaged on a randomized management trial that may research the results of crimson meat within the context of a whole-foods food regimen versus a Commonplace American Weight loss plan. This can be a research that I’ve been dreaming would exist sooner or later, and I used to be so excited to seek out out that it’s really underway as a result of I feel that may deal with among the main points with dietary epidemiology because it issues crimson meat. And I need to discuss to him about his current analysis on plant-based meats, grass-fed meat, dairy, and dairy merchandise and their dietary profile, calorie restriction, and so forth. So I feel you’re actually going to get pleasure from this. With out additional ado, I convey you, Dr. Stephan van Vliet.

Chris Kresser:  Dr. Stephan van Vliet, welcome to the present. It’s a pleasure to have you ever on.

Stephan van Vliet:  Thanks a lot, Chris. I’m comfortable to be right here and thanks for inviting me.

Chris Kresser:  I’ve been trying ahead to this dialog. I feel we all know among the identical folks however didn’t know one another. And I initially turned conscious of your work after I noticed some feedback that you simply’d made on a research on vegan food regimen and kids after which additionally turned conscious that you simply, and we’re going to speak extra about this, so you may appropriate me if I’m unsuitable, are at present engaged on a randomized managed trial finding out the results of crimson meat within the context of a whole-foods food regimen versus a Commonplace American Weight loss plan. As I expressed after we linked, that’s like my dream research—the research that I want had been completed so a few years in the past.

However earlier than we dive into all of that, why don’t you give all people just a little little bit of an thought of your background and the way you took an interest on this subject.

Stephan van Vliet:  Actually. I did my undergrad, really, in enterprise, so I had just a little little bit of a profession swap sooner or later, but it surely was actually throughout that point that as an alternative of studying journals concerning financial system and administration, I used to be studying physiology and vitamin journals. So then by the point I completed my undergrad and bought my diploma in enterprise, I made a decision I ought to most likely make a profession swap. So I (audio skips 1: 32) shift for some time in a muscle metabolism lab in The Netherlands working with steady isotopes and finding out muscle protein metabolism. I bought my grasp’s then in train and vitamin science earlier than making my approach over to the [United States] the place I did a PhD on the College of Illinois, and I graduated as an ESPEN fellow in kinesiology and group well being. It was there the place my work centered rather a lot on whole-food protein ingestion and its results on muscle protein synthesis. And I discovered an essential position for what we name bioactive compounds or nonprotein vitamins and stimulating muscle protein synthesis, which means that the image is just a little bit extra sophisticated than simply amino acids stimulating protein synthesis. However really, having very nutrient-dense meals can additional upregulate protein synthesis. In order that was the spiel of my thesis.

Then I did postdoctoral coaching at Washington College Faculty of Drugs in St Louis. My analysis was centered on weight problems. And over the previous two years, I’ve been at Duke College, the Duke College Faculty of Drugs within the Stedman Diet and Metabolism Heart, and it’s actually right here that a number of my work is concentrated on vitamin and dietary patterns and meals metabolomics, and we will discuss what that precisely is. However it’s principally trying on the complexity of the whole-food matrix and the way the a whole bunch to 1000’s of metabolites in meals can affect human well being or actually going past simply the vitamins that solely seem on meals labels. However actually what are all of the constituents in meals and the way do they affect our metabolic well being. And certainly, we at present have an ongoing research as you talked about, the place we’re trying on the results of crimson meat as a part of a “complete meals” food regimen or conventional food regimen versus a extra trendy Commonplace American Weight loss plan.

Not all crimson meat is created equal. On this episode of RHR, I discuss with Stephan van Vliet concerning the results of crimson meat as a part of a “complete meals” food regimen versus a extra trendy, Commonplace American Weight loss plan. #chriskresser

Chris Kresser:  I can’t wait to speak about that, and I need to begin possibly just a little bit extra usually diving into a pair [of] areas that you simply talked about in your introduction. One is this idea of meals synergy that you simply have been alluding to. I don’t know should you’re conversant in the work of Gyorgy Scrinis who’s a meals thinker. I didn’t even know such a occupation or specialization existed till I encountered his work. I feel he’s a professor in Australia.

However he has argued persuasively that we have now this myopic reductionist strategy to vitamin the place, as you talked about, we’re solely fascinated by vitamins on a meals label as if a meals is only a mixture of vitamins and nothing else. And that one of many points with dietary analysis that plagues dietary analysis is that it doesn’t think about the synergistic results of vitamins as they happen in a meals. And an instance of that is I simply did a presentation at [IHH-]UCSF Symposium on [Nutrition and] Purposeful Drugs on the position of vitamin D within the COVID-19 pandemic.

And it seems that magnesium is a vital cofactor for vitamin D and is required for the metabolism of vitamin D. And in case you have a magnesium deficiency, even should you’re getting sufficient vitamin D, you’re going to be biologically vitamin D poor. There [are] so many different examples of this and but, in a lot of the research that I see, that is by no means thought of as an element. Do you suppose that’s a limitation of perspective or of know-how? Or each?

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, most likely just a little little bit of each. I feel it’s additionally human nature to need to dumb down issues into very particular person constituents as a result of that’s often the way in which that we will higher perceive issues.

Chris Kresser:  Proper.

Stephan van Vliet:   However certainly, the dietary reductionism I agree, it’s an enormous subject as a result of we routinely monitor 150 dietary compounds in USDA databases. 13 of these seem on dietary labels, that are clearly protein and fats, a number of nutritional vitamins and minerals, and carbohydrates and sugar, and in addition saturated fats. However it’s actually after we take a look at a few of these compounds which might be in meals, which we generally name the human meals dome or the meals metabolome, it comprises an estimated 70,000 distinctive metabolites which might be probably able to impacting human well being. And it’s certainly, in that case the place the synergy between these and we see that always, that was additionally what I noticed in my PhD work, the place we noticed a synergy between numerous vitamins within the whole-food matrix.

Notably, for example, one research that we did was, we in contrast complete eggs versus egg whites. Now complete eggs and egg whites have a really comparable amino acid profile. However clearly, all of the bioactive compounds and nutritional vitamins and minerals are contained within the yolk portion of the entire egg. So what we noticed was that after we gave folks an isonitrogenous quantity (it means matched for protein), so the same quantity of protein from egg whites versus complete eggs, we noticed the next muscle anabolic response in [the] case of the entire eggs. And this was possible because of the synergy of those compounds inside the meals matrix, as a result of as earlier research had proven, that should you simply present protein after which the fats as remoted sources, you don’t see that impact of an typically anabolic response.

So there’s undoubtedly one thing inside the whole-food matrix that it has a useful impact. And I feel to broaden the purpose, that can also be what we usually see with that calcium-containing meals are protecting for well being. Carotenoid-containing meals are protecting for well being. However should you would ingest carotenoids, as for example beta carotene. There [have] been many subject trials within the space of beta carotene, really generally displaying a rise in illness threat, proper?

Chris Kresser:  Sure.

Stephan van Vliet:  As a result of carotenoids at all times happen with 300 different carotenoids in nature. So if we then give an remoted constituent, that often makes it a lot much less efficient. So I agree with you that dietary reductionism is difficult. However then additionally, the opposite subject comes again to know-how, and we use meals metabolomics the place we at the least are in a position to get considerably of an perception [into] the complexity of whole-food sources. However I nonetheless can’t say precisely okay, these work collectively on this approach and that is the way it works. We’re actually scratching the floor on that, too. However it does at the least appear that this whole-food matrix impact is essential. And right here we’re in the meanwhile, additionally. Yeah, it’s an rising space of curiosity.

Chris Kresser:  Proper. And the information is perhaps so advanced that we’ll want [artificial intelligence] (AI) or machine studying or one thing to essentially make sense of it ultimately. Do you suppose that’s the case? Or do you suppose we’ll be capable of parse it with our human brains?

Stephan van Vliet:  No, I feel undoubtedly. However even with AI and machine studying, it’s solely pretty much as good because the inputs, I assume.

Chris Kresser:  Certain.

Stephan van Vliet:  It’s nonetheless the human mind. However sure, that’s undoubtedly one thing that’s developing now, utilizing machine studying and AI and coaching based mostly on, it’s nonetheless type of based mostly on the inputs that you simply get from research. However that’s undoubtedly useful to know this stuff. And proper now, I’d say is what we will see is that okay, so far as a whole-food matrix or the way you ingest these compounds issues. So the most effective we will say now’s that it’s most likely greatest to get your sources from meals as a lot as attainable.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, that’s fascinating, and I feel it’s so essential. And I actually am hopeful that this larger give attention to metabolomics and proteomics, which allows us to see the complexity of what’s happening within the background, will lead us to a change in our perspective on vitamins and the position that they play.

Chris Kresser:  Alongside those self same traces, one of many greatest points in dietary epidemiology, which I’ve talked and written about rather a lot, is the wholesome person bias. So for people who find themselves not conversant in that, it is a phenomenon that happens. Let’s say you do a research and also you’re making an attempt to find out the results of crimson meat [on] the food regimen. And also you research a common inhabitants and you discover that individuals who ate extra crimson meat had [a] greater threat of most cancers and coronary heart illness and different ailments. However the issue there may be that crimson meat has been perceived as unhealthy within the [United States], at the least for a lot of, a few years. So individuals who eat crimson meat are additionally extra prone to have interaction in different behaviors which might be unhealthy or perceived as unhealthy.

And so it’s very troublesome then to parse out whether or not the illness impact is because of crimson meat or because of these different elements. Do you suppose that, I do know you’re, in fact, actively engaged on this with the randomized managed trial, so we will discuss that now. However do you suppose that this larger give attention to metabolomics and proteomics may even assist to deal with the wholesome person bias and analysis? Or is that going to be extra, at the least within the brief time period, associated to review design as you’re doing it with the randomized managed trial?

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, I feel there’s going to be associated to the research design. However I do need to level out that, certainly in epidemiology, you usually see that people which might be on the Commonplace American Weight loss plan additionally devour extra crimson meat, and a regional survey on the Commonplace American Weight loss plan being wealthy in all of the (inaudible 11: 42) meals, sugar, decrease in vegetables and fruit. However there are a number of large-scale population-based research in people with wholesome existence, such because the Oxford EPIC cohort that has 65,000 folks. The 45 and Up Research in Australia, which had I take into consideration 270,000. Then additionally extra just lately in Alberta’s Tomorrow Venture, additionally an epidemiological research. And what the authors discovered there may be that within the context of excessive fruit and vegetable consumption, excessive crimson meat consumption really was protecting.

And there, I gained’t say it was not nonsignificant, however the relative threat within the those who ate probably the most vegetables and fruit versus the bottom vegetables and fruit, regardless of having excessive crimson meat consumption, which was over a pound every week, nonetheless confirmed that the relative threat of most cancers went from, I feel, 1.2 to about 0.8. So I need to say that you simply do certainly see this wholesome person bias, however on the identical time, you see when folks do eat crimson meat, and in addition in epidemiological research, you see that when folks eat crimson meat as a part of a “wholesome complete meals” food regimen, the danger turns into roughly benign. And that’s additionally what we’re occupied with testing in a randomized managed trial is that should you devour crimson meat as a part of a Commonplace American Weight loss plan, otherwise you devour it as a part of a extra conventional food regimen, which is, take into consideration how possibly our grandparents used to eat meat as half of a complete meals food regimen that’s additionally wealthy in vegetables and fruit, unprocessed plant meals, low in added sugars, and tremendous sweetened drinks and issues like that. So consider it low as in low in ultra-processed meals.

So we have been occupied with testing that, and that’s at present an ongoing randomized managed trial that we have now. And regardless that we’re about midway by, what we see now’s that folks that devour excessive quantities of crimson meats on “complete meals” diets have a tendency to enhance. This can be a four-week research, so it’s short-term, however in these 4 weeks, we see a discount in triglycerides, a discount in [low-density lipoprotein] (LDL) ldl cholesterol, upkeep in [high-density lipoprotein] (HDL) ldl cholesterol, [and] discount in whole ldl cholesterol. We see some inflammatory markers bettering like [interleukin-6] and C-reactive protein.

Once more, not the total knowledge set but. So I don’t know if it’s all up at, when we have now the total knowledge set. However these are at the least a few of our preliminary findings the place we see that should you, and we’re validating the epidemiological research. So we’re really not that completely different from the epidemiological research, however most of what you hear in dietary epidemiology is as a result of most of it’s carried out in folks on the Commonplace American Weight loss plan. So I feel that that’s essential to level out.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, that’s an ideal level. And I coated a number of of these research in just a few of my Joe Rogan appearances and debates with Joel Kahn. And it’s a great reminder you can design an observational research to reply these questions should you design it with that intent, and should you design it nicely, proper?

The primary research, I feel, that I’m conscious of that tried to try this was the Well being Meals Customers research out of the UK the place they have been conscious of the wholesome person bias they usually thought, “Properly, how can we take at the least one easy step towards making an attempt to establish a inhabitants of people who find themselves making more healthy decisions than most people after which differentiate between consuming meat or not consuming meat inside that inhabitants?” So that they principally simply studied individuals who shopped at well being meals shops considering that that was most likely an honest though considerably crude approach of figuring out individuals who have a usually greater consciousness of well being.

After which they discovered that there was an enormous distinction in general mortality and morbidity between all the Well being Meals Customers group and the overall inhabitants, however there was no distinction in morbidity and mortality between the individuals who ate meat and didn’t eat meat inside the Well being Meals [Shoppers] group. So, that also, in fact, doesn’t show, it’s nonetheless statement, [and] all of the caveats apply. However it’s at the least an try to manage for a few of these probably confounding elements.

Stephan van Vliet:  Sure, precisely. Primarily based on a few of that knowledge we’re making an attempt to objectively check the speculation what it’s will maintain up within the randomized managed trial. And I do need to add although is that there’s some mechanistic perception on this, too. As a result of the findings of in depth in vitro and in vivo knowledge largely in animal fashions, however they do counsel that plant compounds can antagonize the deleterious results of dangerous compounds in crimson meat. So consider antagonistic (inaudible 16: 48), nitrogen compounds, (inaudible 16: 51) proteins.

Chris Kresser:  Sure. TMAO.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, precisely. So should you marinate your meats or use a number of spices or have it with crimson wine or espresso or [an] in any other case plant-rich food regimen, you do see that the formation of those compounds is diminished by generally to 70 to 80 %. So it’s actually that complementary nature of plant and animal meals and I feel combining one meals with one other to offset the dangerous of 1 meals to reap the advantages. So let’s say clearly crimson meats, let’s take that for example. Wealthy in bioavailable protein, wealthy in a wide range of nutritional vitamins and minerals, however it might include some deleterious compounds, too. However we will offset these, probably, by consuming them as a part of a phytochemically wealthy food regimen or combining this with bland meals.

And I feel that’s as outdated as humanity as a result of one instance I at all times like to make use of is that in additional conventional teams inside Latin America and at the least traditionally, for example, is [to] use clay with their potatoes. The explanation that they might do that’s they might reap the advantages of the potato, get the starch, get nutritional vitamins, minerals, however the clay would bind to the toxins and the toxins would move out of them. So that is one other traditional instance of how people have been ingenious prior to now to mix one meals with one other to just remember to get the advantages of 1 meals however offset the potential unfavorable compounds of the opposite. So, in that case, there’s additionally that potential with crimson meats, for example.

Chris Kresser:  I couldn’t agree extra, and I’ve to confess my private bias right here that I’ve at all times been just a little bit skeptical of actually excessive dietary approaches which might be adopted for an extended time period for that motive. So the carnivore food regimen being the most recent instance, I feel, the place there’s little doubt that anecdotally, I’ve seen this as a clinician, some persons are getting phenomenal outcomes from following a carnivore food regimen. Folks with extreme autoimmune ailments which have been intractable and haven’t been in a position to deal with them some other approach [are] turning into primarily symptom-free and going into remission after some time period on a carnivore food regimen.

And so I utterly perceive the attraction, and but for the entire causes that you simply simply talked about, together with no historic instance that we all know of, of a inhabitants that completely consumed animal merchandise always through the 12 months for an extended time period and based mostly on among the mechanisms that you simply simply talked about of what we find out about how phytochemicals can are likely to offset among the probably dangerous compounds which might be fashioned once you eat meat or when meat is digested, it offers me pause (let’s simply put it that approach) and makes me really feel just a little bit cautious or nervous about folks doing that for an extended time period. I’m simply curious, what’s your perspective on that, based mostly in your analysis?

Stephan van Vliet:  I totally agree with the whole lot that you simply talked about, particularly, that’s additionally my reservation concerning the carnivore food regimen. And I feel, if we draw a parallel to possibly a vegan food regimen, you see the development in well being may probably be due to the meals that you simply’re not consuming, proper?

Chris Kresser:  Proper.

Stephan van Vliet:  It’s a great elimination food regimen in case you have points with sure bland compounds or you’ve got leaky intestine and you’ve got issues with digestion, then an elimination food regimen may undoubtedly assist by taking away the supply. So that you initially, in fact, really feel higher. And the identical, for example, with probably a vegan food regimen the place should you enhance your food regimen high quality, that will enhance, or let’s say should you had sensitivity to dairy or one thing and also you take away that, then clearly, you may see a well being profit. And naturally, I need to additionally admit that consuming a number of phytochemicals in a part of a vegan food regimen is helpful. And we should always bounce right into a research in a while that got here out just a few days in the past within the American Journal of Scientific Diet, which was in kids. However we will discuss that in just a little bit.

However that confirmed that the rise in phytochemicals is perhaps a great factor, however that in some animal meals as a part of that may even be a great factor. However to not go off too far in the meanwhile. However yeah, I agree. That’s additionally my long-term reservation, is that sure, initially, it’s possible you’ll really feel higher since you remove some meals. However what about a few of these phytochemicals that you simply’re lacking over the long run? Properly, they have an effect in your well being, and generally illness threat over the long run, significantly with issues equivalent to most cancers.

Chris Kresser:  It’s such a important level. I’m glad you introduced it up. It may be a great segue into speaking about vegan diets and children, which is the way in which I initially was uncovered to your work. I typically ask that very same query. Somebody says, “I felt superb after I switched to a vegan food regimen.” And among the follow-up questions could be, “What have been you consuming earlier than?” And sometimes the reply is a Commonplace American Weight loss plan. So, in fact, should you swap from consuming ultra-processed meals and sugar and flour, and industrialized seed oils, and all that crap, and then you definately transfer to consuming complete meals, you’re going to really feel rather a lot higher virtually throughout the board.

However then the subsequent query is, “How lengthy have you ever been on the vegan food regimen?” And if the reply is just a few months, then I’m nonetheless going to be skeptical that it’s your best option as a result of, we will discuss this if it comes up, within the research of vegan diets, we all know that among the nutrient deficiencies that may develop on a vegan food regimen don’t occur in a single day, proper? They take months, in some instances, years, and it relies upon rather a lot on the nutrient standing of the individual earlier than they adopted the vegan food regimen. It additionally relies upon most likely on genetic elements that have an effect on conversion of precursor vitamins, like beta carotene to energetic types of the nutrient like retinol.

So yeah, let’s use this as a segue to speak about this research that appeared on the results of vegan diets and children. I consider you weren’t the creator of that research, however I recall studying a tweet that you simply did concerning the research. Am I remembering that appropriately?

Stephan van Vliet:  Sure, that’s appropriate. The research was out of Finland. I do need to spotlight, I’m coming again to your level first earlier than I transfer into the vegan food regimen. I’d say the identical might be true for a carnivore food regimen, too, the place initially, you’ll really feel higher on that. In order that I feel is a (crosstalk 23: 52).

Chris Kresser:  Completely.

Stephan van Vliet:  Should you go from a Commonplace American Weight loss plan to a carnivore food regimen or a vegan food regimen, or a whole-foods carnivore food regimen.

Chris Kresser:  Or a ketogenic food regimen. I need to point out that, too, as a result of [the] ketogenic food regimen may be [an] extremely highly effective therapeutic device for thus many situations like epilepsy and kind 2 diabetes and kind 1 diabetes and cognitive decline, dementia, Alzheimer’s [disease], Parkinson’s [disease], and so forth. However that doesn’t essentially imply by extension that it’s a sustainable, or optimum long-term choice. I feel that’s the place we have to make the excellence, proper?

Stephan van Vliet:  I agree. And in addition, the person variations between people is so nice that what may go for [one] individual won’t work for the opposite individual. And that’s why additionally when you’ve got (inaudible 24: 41) of individuals being on a carnivore food regimen for 20 years or being on a vegan food regimen for 20 years, and it being in good well being based mostly on their (inaudible 24: 50) at the least, I definitely consider that’s attainable. However I don’t suppose it’s attainable throughout the board, proper?

So certainly, we do know the person variations exist, and as you talked about, the beta carotene to retinol conversion varies wildly between folks and with a few of these different conversions, too.

Chris Kresser:   [Vitamin] K1 to K2.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, precisely. So these are all essential nuances. When somebody says, “Oh, this works for me, and I really feel nice,” that may be the case. However one other individual says, “Properly, I attempted the vegan food regimen for 10 years and my well being fell aside,” it might not be as a result of they didn’t do it proper. However it may simply be that, because of genetic variations, [they] are usually not in a position to maintain that.

Stephan van Vliet:  However coming again to the research on the vegan food regimen and kids, and I feel that is the place it will get just a little bit extra tough, as a result of clearly, as an grownup, I’d not query that somebody may be wholesome on a vegan food regimen. However what the research present in feeding kids is that they didn’t have a definite metabolome profile and included decrease DHA, which is omega-three fatty acids. Additionally significantly decrease ranges of whole ldl cholesterol, HDL ldl cholesterol, LDL ldl cholesterol, alterations [in] circulating amino acids, decrease ranges of vitamin[s] A [and] D, decrease ranges of zinc. And should you zoom in on the ldl cholesterol for just a little bit, what’s significantly attention-grabbing about that’s that what the authors additionally noticed, alongside the decrease ranges of HDL and LDL ldl cholesterol, additionally intermediaries in ldl cholesterol. So this [cholestenol] was decrease.

So what that principally means is that the endogenous compensatory ldl cholesterol biosynthesis that you simply sometimes see in vegan adults, the place the endogenous manufacturing takes over and offers the mandatory ldl cholesterol, this was not a lot the case in kids. In order that’s possibly considerably regarding, as a result of particularly when kids are clearly rising, and we all know ldl cholesterol is important for mobile progress, for cell division, for improvement of many physiological substances, as a result of it’s a significant position within the synthesis of cell membranes. Particularly in a speedy progress interval as a baby, that is perhaps a problem. It’s a precursor to steroid hormones and in addition the mind myelin.

Chris Kresser:  The myelin. Myelin sheath, yep.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, precisely. So that’s essential. After which additionally, what all of them simply did was a metabolomics evaluation much like what we use in my lab, too. And that’s why I significantly was within the research, and it was fairly distinctive and hats off to the authors for the research. However in addition they confirmed that bile acid biosynthesis was the biggest pathway that was altered in vegan kids. So the metabolomics knowledge. And we all know the principle route of ldl cholesterol excretion is thru bile acids. And so these direct measurements revealed that greater main bile acid and cholic acid and a decrease taurine to glycine ratio, confirmed that there was a big distinction in a pathway in bile acid biosynthesis.

So I feel that’s the place just a little little bit of the warning ought to are available. And regardless that there [are] no clearly outlined effectivity ranges based mostly on blood ldl cholesterol, the truth that these levels of cholesterol in vegan infants and kids have been so low, and that ldl cholesterol inside the physique was not upregulated or didn’t take over, yeah, that might be my massive concern for the long run. After which rolling right into a research that simply got here out within the American Journal of Scientific Diet. And this was a research the place additionally [there was a] cross-sectional comparability between vegan youngsters, vegetarian youngsters, and omnivorous youngsters. So that they have been between 5 [and] 10 years outdated. And right here, it additionally confirmed most of the identical issues. Decrease whole ldl cholesterol, decrease HDL, additionally decrease [vitamin] B12, and 25-hydroxyvitamin D except they have been supplemented. However what was essential is the bone mineral density was decrease, and the vegan kids have been shorter than [the other children]. So there was a suggestion at the least that it stunts progress just a little bit. And what was attention-grabbing about that, and maybe considerably paradoxically, is that they did have type of a metabolic profile that was suggestive of higher cardiovascular well being. So they’d points with progress, with one thing (progress? 29: 21), however they did present with a more healthy cardiometabolic profile. As an example, a decrease C-reactive protein.

Chris Kresser:  [I have] a query about that, although. Was there any context management of the omnivorous food regimen, or was it only a Commonplace American omnivorous food regimen?

Stephan van Vliet:  Sure. So let’s go into that as a result of the findings are comparatively simple to clarify in that case. It’s virtually speculative, I need to admit that. However what the research discovered was that the kids that have been consuming the omnivorous food regimen have been consuming extra of a Commonplace American Weight loss plan. In order that signifies that their sugar consumption or sucrose consumption was 50 grams whereas [for] the vegan kids, it was 38 grams. The fiber consumption of the omnivorous kids was 15 grams, [and] vegan kids had a fiber consumption that was double of that. And in addition should you take a look at another indicators like beta carotene, 2500 micrograms in omnivores, over 5000 within the vegan food regimen.

So what that means is that the vegan kids have been on a nutritious diet whereas the omnivorous kids have been on extra of a Commonplace American Weight loss plan. So I couldn’t assist [but] suppose that what if the vegan kids ate just a little little bit of animal meals with their food regimen as a part of their whole-foods food regimen? They most likely would nonetheless have low C-reactive protein, [and] they might have a great cardiovascular [cardiovascular disease] threat metabolic profile. However they might most likely even be thriving and be simply as, of the identical bone mineral density and doubtless additionally the identical progress because the omnivorous kids. So, in different phrases, what was tough concerning the research is that the vegan kids have been clearly on a more healthy food regimen. However I’d think about if the omnivorous kids have been on an equally nutritious diet, they might additionally would have offered with a low C-reactive protein.

Chris Kresser:  I’d think about that, as nicely, and that’s why I’m so enthusiastic about your RCT, your managed trial that you simply’re doing with crimson meat, as a result of I feel it’ll assist to reply that query.

Chris Kresser:  I do know there was one other paper revealed by Ty Beal on nutrient gaps in low-income nations, and the diets of individuals in low-income nations and animal proteins probably having the ability to fill that hole. That’s considerably associated to what we’re speaking about now. So possibly we may discuss just a little bit concerning the position of animal protein within the food regimen, the issues that animal proteins can uniquely present, or if not uniquely, are substantial sources that aren’t present in plant proteins. And we may possibly begin with Ty Beal’s paper, after which we will segue right into a dialogue of the distinction between plant and animal proteins when it comes to anabolic response and amino acid profile, which is, I do know, a specialization of yours and also you’ve completed some work on that, as nicely.

Stephan van Vliet:  Completely. We are able to additionally discuss a current paper the place we really in contrast beef with a novel plant-based meat various. So plant protein that was matched.

Chris Kresser:  Sure.

Stephan van Vliet:  In order that additionally will spotlight a number of this stuff that we discuss. However sure, coming again to, and certainly that clearly modifications issues once you begin extra growing nations or low-income nations [where people] have been consuming small quantities, even small quantities. Consider it like an egg a day or just a few ounces of meat would go a really great distance in offering nutrient adequacy. So that’s essential, and sure, can we probably eat just a little bit much less animal-sourced meals? Can some folks within the west try this? Sure, I definitely consider that we will and with none points to our well being. Exceptions could also be once you’re older. We all know you want extra protein, particularly because of anabolic resistance. Animal proteins are essential. Additionally possibly once you’re youthful however all through in a wholesome grownup, and sure, that’s probably the case.

However then should you take a look at low-income nations, clearly, the protein consumption wants to extend. And if we simply transcend protein, clearly we’re additionally speaking about widespread issues that we consider, [like] zinc, [vitamin] B12, [and] iron. But in addition, a few of these what we name secondary compounds, and I don’t actually like utilizing that phrase an excessive amount of as a result of it makes it appear to be they’re not essential.

Chris Kresser:   Proper.

Stephan van Vliet:   However should you take a look at issues like anserine, carnosine metabolite, or cystamine, I imply, creatine, hydroxyproline, you title it. Taurine. These vitamins have essential physiological and anti inflammatory immunomodulatory roles. And deficiencies are related to cardiovascular deficits, neurocognitive deficits, skeletal muscle points, [and] connective tissue dysfunction. So we all know from randomized managed trials that creatine and anserine, that are each amino acid metabolites present in animal-sourced meals completely, present neurocognitive manufacturing in older adults. And in addition cystamine, additionally discovered largely [in] animal meals, is a potent antioxidant that has neuroprotective results and is a precursor of glutathione, which is without doubt one of the most potent intracellular antioxidants.

So if we, and that is once more type of transcend this dietary reductionism and we begin peeling again the onion layer, or on this case, I don’t know, no matter commerce.

Chris Kresser:   Egg shell?

Stephan van Vliet:   Sure precisely. It’s like pulling again the, cracking the egg shell, is that we see that the complexity of meals is, the whole-food matrix may be very advanced and offers a plethora of vitamins that might not be present in sure different sources. In order that’s why I additionally don’t like, and I began to get away from this, too, utilizing the time period “animal and plant protein” as a result of that someway signifies that they’re interrelated, that they’re interchangeable. However they’re not as a result of animal and plant meals present a lot greater than protein. They supply all kinds of vitamins that may affect human well being. And so the aforementioned one that folks could not consider instantly, however these may be probably essential for human well being. And that is without doubt one of the issues that we’re additionally investigating proper now. And for example, squalene is one other one, which has antioxidant or anti-tumor exercise in animal fashions. So it’d be attention-grabbing to see how that pans out in people, too.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, I’m glad you introduced this up as a result of one of many examples of this that I typically consider is EPA and DHA. So traditionally, the precursor omega three, alpha-linolenic acid was thought of important. Important having a really particular which means within the dietary context, which means the physique can’t synthesize it by itself, and we have to receive it from the food regimen or else dangerous issues will occur, proper? And over time, some scientists have argued that DHA and EPA ought to really be thought of important as a result of in some instances, even when somebody is getting theoretically sufficient quantities of alpha-linolenic acid from issues like flaxseed or walnuts or different plant meals that include it, that might not be enough for them to transform that into sufficient quantities of EPA and DHA which are literally crucial vitamins for quite a few processes within the physique. The mind, anti-inflammatory results, and so forth.

Particularly when persons are consuming massive quantities of omega-six fat that may intrude with that conversion, or in the event that they’re poor in vitamins which might be essential for that conversion, which many people who find themselves following an completely plant-based food regimen are. So it begins to get fairly advanced, and possibly at the moment’s secondary nutrient may turn into tomorrow’s main or important nutrient after we perceive extra about them.

Stephan van Vliet:  I agree. And to your level concerning the omega-three fatty acids, that’s certainly true. And it’s possible that that conversion, which is usually lower than 5 %, or in lots of instances, lower than 1 % of ALA to EPA and DHA, type of plant model to the animal model, I see that as like a fallback mechanism. Within the case that we don’t have it, we will produce sufficient to maintain, maintain us going.

Chris Kresser:  Proper.

Stephan van Vliet:  However what we do see in lots of randomized managed trials is that intakes of 200 to 300 milligrams, and generally even greater than that relying on the scientific state of mixed EPA and DHA per day, present neurocognitive advantages. So when you could hit the minimal on a vegan food regimen since you ingest ALA, it doesn’t imply that you simply optimize the potential advantages that you’d get from omega-three fatty acids. So I feel that’s essential to know the distinction between deficiency versus optimization. I feel that is without doubt one of the issues that you simply miss out on.

And on the identical time, it might be true, too, for among the different issues as we talked about, simply taking the opposite excessive, once more. Taking a carnivore food regimen. Sure, it’s possible you’ll present your self with loads of sometimes fat-soluble nutritional vitamins which might be (recommendable? 38: 58) sources, loads of protein, however it’s possible you’ll not optimize the quantity of phytochemicals in your food regimen, which certainly are most likely solely conditionally important or nonessential. However it doesn’t imply that they don’t seem to be essential or do not need advantages. So I feel these are two essential issues, deficiency versus optimization of the food regimen.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, that’s a very important level, too. And I feel that this complete dialogue will get again to what we actually began speaking about to start with of the podcast; it’s this concept of shifting away from simply understanding a nutrient like protein in a type of macro sense. And actually having a greater sense of what the nuances are underneath that umbrella class of protein as a result of not all proteins have the identical results. And we all know that from the appreciable quantity of analysis that’s been completed when it comes to the response of the physique to the amino acid profile of protein.

So are you able to discuss just a little bit about some, you many years in the past hypothesized that maybe a mixing of plant proteins with a whole amino acid profile would enhance the anabolic response. And you would possibly outline that for listeners who are usually not conversant in what meaning. However the current work means that even once you recreate that very same full amino acid profile, it doesn’t have the identical anabolic response {that a} full animal supply like whey has. Have been you shocked by that? And what do you suppose explains that distinction?

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, I definitely hypothesized unsuitable, Chris. That’s for positive. I did suppose that if, and going again to what full amino acids profile, usually a plant supply is poor in both methionine or cysteine. So should you mixed, for example, legumes with rice, you may make for a whole amino acid profile.

And so what the current research confirmed was they didn’t research the muscle anabolic response, however they did research put up brand-new amino acids degree. So after consuming amino acids, a protein will get digested, absorbed, the amino acids turn into absorbed, they usually get put out by the portal vein into systemic circulation (inaudible 41: 31) the place (they will then use them 41: 32) for muscle mass. So that they didn’t research muscle protein synthesis, however they did research the supply of amino acids within the blood. And what they confirmed was that regardless of creating a whole amino acid profile, it was additionally matched for leucine to the whey protein. And leucine [is] additionally [a] crucial amino acid for foremost anabolic set off. So that they matched the amino acid contents, but it surely nonetheless confirmed that the quantity of amino acids that turned out there within the blood after consuming the entire plant protein was decrease than when in comparison with consuming the dairy protein.

And yeah, that was considerably stunning, as a result of I’d have anticipated that the quantities could be comparable. As a result of the thought was and what we hypothesized in that paper just a few years again was based mostly on the present out there literature at the moment, was that should you current the (splancing? 42: 31) tissue. So the liver with an unbalanced amino acid profile, you upregulate ureagenesis, so the losing of protein. However you additionally upregulate protein synthesis within the liver and within the intestine tissue. So our speculation was is that should you current the liver with an unbalanced amino acid profile, it’s type of a sign {that a} famine is coming or an amino acid deficiency is coming, in order that it upregulates protein synthesis in very important tissues such because the liver and the (inaudible 43: 03) organs, and probably even the center.

You upregulate protein synthesis within the very important organs on the expense of skeletal muscle so that you simply at the least will survive till you get extra of a whole amino acid profile. So I figured should you didn’t ingest the entire amino acid profile, even when it comes from crops, you’ll nonetheless see the same response to the animal protein. However that wasn’t the case. However what we have been proper about, I assume, or hypothesized appropriately additionally based mostly on present knowledge, whereas this was just lately confirmed by a research is that in case your consumption is excessive sufficient, let’s say over 1.6 grams per kilogram physique weight per day, it doesn’t matter whether or not you’re consuming plant protein or animal protein. As a result of at that time, you’re offering so many amino acids, that any distinction[s] in amino acid profiles are being overwritten simply since you present a lot.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, that’s actually attention-grabbing. And it makes me surprise, too, what can we nonetheless not perceive concerning the variations and the parts. It makes me consider, as a clinician, like, with immunity. The immune system is so vastly advanced and there’s a lot we nonetheless don’t perceive. And within the case of viral infections, it’s typically, I imply, you consider issues like vaccination, the first purpose there may be to stimulate our pure innate immune response, regardless of many years and many years of analysis on antivirals which might be designed to truly kill the pathogen. Nonetheless, the best choice is to impress our pure immune response. Proper?

And since it’s simply so subtle and sophisticated, we don’t have a simple approach of replicating it aside from to stimulate it. And I’m wondering if there’s one thing comparable occurring inside the context of complete meals versus making an attempt to isolate sure vitamins or elements of the meals and recreate the impact that there’s simply this sort of meta impact that the entire meals has that we don’t even totally perceive.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, and also you’re lacking out on it. It additionally significantly underestimates the complexity. I imply, [let’s] contact upon this rapidly. What we did was a research, hopefully, it’ll come out this 12 months, that saved us busy throughout [the COVID-19 pandemic] after we needed to shut down our randomized managed trials. What we did was we appeared on the novel plant-based meat various that was matched to design the vitamin label of beef. So [a] comparable quantity of protein, comparable quantity of fat, nutritional vitamins, minerals, the vitamin information panels appeared pretty an identical. A minimum of 50 % of the shoppers can’t actually see the distinction based mostly on the meals survey. So what we checked out was, and that is additionally what’s usually touted for plant-based meat alternate options, proper? As a result of the mantra is just a little bit plant-based meat comprises or animal meats are made out of protein, lipids, nutritional vitamins, and minerals. And we will create all of this stuff utilizing plant merchandise utilizing plant materials.

So what we did was we [ran] it by our [mass spectrometer] that gave it a metabolomics profiling after which certainly confirmed that 90 % of those small molecule metabolites, a lot of which might have essential well being implications, and people have been those we talked about, like taurine and cysteamine and anserine and a wide range of different phenols. And in addition, the (inaudible 46: 28) position is phytosterols. We noticed a 90 % distinction between the meat and the plant-based meat various. And you would glean this from the vitamin information panel. In order that comes again to the truth that we simply highlighted, that the complexity of issues, and on this case, all meals matrix, but additionally to your level, your instance of vaccines is sure, the complexity of metabolism, physiology, and meals certainly present that there’s nonetheless a lot a lot to be taught. And that merely us considering that we will type of recreate one thing like that simply isn’t the case. It type of overestimates our capability.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah, precisely. And we’ll most likely look again sooner or later. If not, I’m positive folks such as you already are it this manner. However on the thought of having the ability to seize the total complexity and results of a meals on a small two-inch by one-inch meals label that’s printed on a bundle that comprises that meals or someplace else. It’s type of foolish once you begin to perceive the complexity of what we’re coping with.

Chris Kresser:  I need to ask one other query about protein earlier than we end up right here. And we’ll should have you ever again as a result of I need to additionally discuss to you sooner or later about, I do know you give attention to farm practices and the results that various kinds of farming have on yields and a complete bunch of different subjects that I do know my listeners [and I] are actually occupied with. However one of many greatest issues or critiques of animal protein diets, significantly these which might be greater in protein than the typical consumption, is that they will trigger kidney issues. I’ve addressed this earlier than, however I’d love to listen to your tackle it. As a result of that is, in fact, anytime I’ve ever talked to an advocate of a vegan food regimen or vegetarian food regimen, this inevitably comes up as one of many downsides of an animal protein-based food regimen.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, I assume (inaudible 48: 44). So right here’s one of the simplest ways of claiming it. Within the absence of any pre-existing kidney situation, a high-protein food regimen doesn’t trigger kidney illness. That’s about as clear as I can say it.

Chris Kresser:  Yeah. And I discovered the identical in my analysis, but it surely’s simply a kind of memes that such as you mentioned, it doesn’t go away simply regardless of overwhelming proof on the contrary, proper?

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah. No protein researcher within the subject thinks that that is the case. So yeah, it’s attention-grabbing. However it at all times appears to maintain coming again. And I assume these myths die laborious. However inside, there’s not a number of issues that I ought to say that we’re very positive, at all times utterly positive about. I gained’t say that we’re utterly positive about this, however the overwhelming quantity of proof factors to the concept that within the absence of any pre-existing kidney situation, a high-protein food regimen isn’t detrimental. And we really did a research in dialysis sufferers, that are those who should bear (Crosstalk 49: 51).

Chris Kresser:  Positively is a pre-existing situation, yeah.

Stephan van Vliet:  It’s a pre-existing situation, however there it additionally turns into much more sophisticated as a result of in that case, as soon as your kidneys [have] failed and it’s essential to bear dialysis after which probably get, hopefully, get a kidney transplant, at that time, you really profit from greater protein index since you’re so extremely catabolic. And in that case, greater protein intakes are beneficial to forestall muscle loss. So it turns into sophisticated in a short time. However once you’re in type of the in-between the place you’ve got a pre-existing kidney situation, completely it is very important see a nephrologist and probably restrict your protein consumption.

My guess could be that possibly not the protein, however among the different issues that you’re consuming is perhaps additionally one thing to take a look at. However yeah, high-protein diets in wholesome people isn’t of concern.

Chris Kresser:  Implausible. I’ve actually loved this dialog, Stephan. And I comply with you on Twitter. What’s your Twitter deal with for many who want to comply with your work there?

Stephan van Vliet:  It’s @vanVlietPhD. So my final title, van Vliet. After which should you simply Google me and kind in Stephan van Vliet, Duke, then I feel all my Google Scholar profile on social media and different skilled profiles will come up.

Chris Kresser:  Nice. That’s v-a-n V-l-i-e-t, appropriate?

Stephan van Vliet:  That’s proper.

Chris Kresser:  Okay. For these of us crude People who aren’t excellent at spelling Dutch names. So thanks a lot for approaching the present. I undoubtedly need to have you ever again and discuss just a little bit extra about farming and ranching and regenerative agriculture, and among the impacts that industrialized agriculture can have on not solely manufacturing, however nutrient density, proper?

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah, precisely. That’s largely the half that I give attention to. So that’s interdisciplinary work that we began just a few years in the past, and we’re actually working on the agriculture human well being nexus. So does the way in which that we produce meals affect the nutrient density, and the way does that affect our well being? After which what we’re doing is certainly overlaying plant metabolomes with beef metabolomes with human metabolomes and see if there’s this remaining nutrient switch.

Chris Kresser:  Proper. And you’ll suppose that might be a rhetorical query, but it surely hasn’t been. Traditionally, the idea has been that it doesn’t matter, I’d say, simply based mostly on how issues are arrange. However we completely know that it does, which isn’t stunning given our dialog at the moment.

Stephan van Vliet:  Yeah. A farmer instructed me the opposite day that my job is solely to, or that what I do is verifying widespread sense. However I don’t need to consider it that approach as a result of I don’t need to suppose that each one my work is kicking in open doorways. However yeah, it does.

Chris Kresser:  No, I imply, sadly, widespread sense doesn’t prevail in the way in which that issues are arrange. So we’d like this work to confirm that widespread sense is definitely rooted in verifiable scientific proof, not simply folklore, or the way in which that issues have been completed for a very long time.

Stephan van Vliet:  No, no. I agree.

Chris Kresser:  And that’s what’s so attention-grabbing about this ancestral lens that we glance by generally, and also you pointed this out earlier, the place someway our ancestors knew concerning the significance of meals synergy and mixing some meals with different meals or fermenting a meals to scale back the degrees of poisons. Or like with, you talked about, potatoes and clay and other people in Africa who devour cassava, which is very poisonous in its uncooked kind. They’ve in depth strategies for getting ready it. They didn’t know something concerning the biochemistry. They someway discovered this over time by trial and error. However that doesn’t imply that simply because they didn’t use science to get to the reply that the reply is wrong scientifically.

Stephan van Vliet:  I agree. Although I’d hate to be the primary one that would ever attempt a potato and I’m wondering how many individuals misplaced their lives.

Chris Kresser:  Sure, we will thank our ancestors who died consuming uncooked cassava and potatoes for the advantage of humanity.

Stephan van Vliet:   Precisely. Yeah.

Chris Kresser:  All proper. Properly, thanks once more. [I] recognize it. And we look ahead to having you again on the present subsequent time. And thanks, all people, for listening. Maintain sending your questions in to ChrisKresser.com/podcastquestion, and we’ll discuss to you subsequent time.