RHR: Managing Display Time for Children

Expertise has grown to play an more and more vital function in our each day lives, so it’s completely important that we think about the attainable dangerous results of display time on each adults and youngsters. There’s a rising concern for youngsters whose growing brains and social expertise will be affected by [the] overuse of know-how, and but it’s change into obvious that tech will stay ingrained in our lives for the foreseeable future. On this podcast, I cowl a few of the ways in which my household makes use of and restricts know-how in our each day lives, some examples of how it may be dangerous and what we will do about it, in addition to some solutions for every household to undertake a plan for managing their display time in [a] manner that works greatest for them. 

On this episode, we talk about:

  • Why we’re speaking about this matter
  • Hanging a steadiness between placing too many restrictions on our children’ display time and never giving them sufficient restrictions 
  • Selecting the most effective software program for your loved ones to handle your kids’s know-how use
  • The significance of being conscious of the potential damaging impacts of know-how use
  • Different know-how to present your kids moreover the favored smartphone or pill
  • Determining how a lot display time is the correct quantity in your youngster
  • When to have a sit-down dialogue together with your youngster to speak about accountable know-how use and display time steadiness

Present notes:

  • OurPact app for managing tech time
  • Display Time app for managing display time
  • The Social Dilemma documentary 
  • RHR: Reclaiming Your Self within the Trendy World with Cal Newport
  • Gabb Wi-fi telephones and watches 

RHR: Managing Display Time for Children


Chris Kresser: Hey, everyone, Chris Kresser right here. Welcome to a different episode of Revolution Well being Radio. This week, I’m going to do a solo present on a subject that we’ve acquired fairly a couple of questions on over the previous six or seven months. I’ve spoken over time and extra lately concerning the dangerous impacts of extra display time for each youngsters and adults. And I’ve talked a good quantity concerning the steps that we as adults can take to cut back display time. However a couple of listeners have written in to ask for concepts on the best way to restrict display use in youngsters, given how ubiquitous these applied sciences have change into of their lives. And this has been much more true in the course of the pandemic when many youngsters have been remoted and stored at house and screens have been their main interfaces with their lecturers, associates, and lives usually.

I’m going to share some concepts and instruments that we’ve discovered to be useful in our household. And there are a few caveats right here. The primary is that that is positively a piece in progress. It’s been a wrestle for us. We discovered some issues which have been efficient [and] some issues that haven’t been efficient. And I believe it’s price stating that we’re merchandise of the environment, and we’re formed by our surroundings, and we’re influenced and affected by our surroundings. And we will’t make remoted modifications in that atmosphere and anticipate these modifications to not be impacted by the circumstances or circumstances of that atmosphere. That’s a slightly long-winded manner of claiming that if we discover ourselves in a tradition the place these applied sciences are dominant and play an more and more important function in social interactions between kids and leisure actions and the best way that youngsters study, and nearly the whole lot else, it’s going to be troublesome for us to deal with that on a person degree. These are systemic issues, and, definitely, there are steps that we will take individually and as households to mitigate the impression of these applied sciences. However on the finish of the day, we’re nonetheless topic to the affect of the atmosphere that we reside in. And I believe that’s one of the troublesome facets of this for folks.

It’s one thing I talked with Cal Newport a little bit bit on the present that I did with him on this broader matter of know-how in our lives. He additionally makes [the] level that, in his expertise, purely particular person steps which can be taken to cut back display time for adults, which is what he largely talks about, are sometimes not that efficient as a result of they ignore the significance of this context that we’re discussing right here. In order that’s the primary caveat. The second caveat in what I’m going to share with you is that we as a household are fairly restrictive in the case of these things. Plenty of what we do may appear draconian or unrealistic to you, relying in your explicit state of affairs. If there’s a spectrum the place on one finish is not any boundaries in any respect, and simply giving youngsters 100% management over their very own use of know-how, after which on the opposite finish of the spectrum resides in a cave, in a distant space the place there’s completely no publicity to applied sciences for youths, I’d say we’re definitely not within the cave. However we’re in all probability nearer to that finish of the spectrum than we’re to the opposite finish of the spectrum the place there’s no limitation or boundaries in any respect.

And I’m not saying that our manner is the one manner, in fact, and even the appropriate manner. Each household has to search out what works for them, given their particular circumstances, and there will probably be numerous variables that decide that. One is perhaps simply every explicit youngster’s relationship with know-how and the way vulnerable they’re to display habit or extra display use interfering with different actions. The reality is that’s not the identical for each child. I believe all youngsters are vulnerable to some extent, identical to all adults are vulnerable, due to our fundamental hardwired organic human programming. However inside that susceptibility, there’s positively a spread. There are children who’re very vulnerable to this and, sadly, these youngsters can change into those [who] cope with precise habit and should find yourself in rehab for online game habit or display habit of some type. And it will possibly actually destroy their lives and their household’s lives.

Hanging a Stability Between Too Many Restrictions and Not Sufficient

On the opposite finish of the spectrum, you could have youngsters [who] are mildly vulnerable in the best way that each one human beings are vulnerable, nevertheless it doesn’t actually intrude with their lives. It doesn’t get in the best way of their regular human relationships; it doesn’t get in the best way of their bodily exercise, spending time outdoor, and all the opposite stuff that’s vital for youths to be doing. In order that’s one variable. One other variable will probably be their social contacts and associates. One of many issues that’s hardest for us, and that I hear from so many various households, is limiting entry to those applied sciences, in lots of instances, limits their participation within the social actions that their associates are engaged in. For instance, I had a dialogue a number of months again with a guardian of a 16-year-old woman, and her 16-year-old woman was devastated as a result of she felt like she had misplaced her greatest good friend as a result of her greatest good friend had joined Instagram and was interacting quite a bit with different associates on Instagram. And this explicit guardian of this 16-year-old didn’t need her daughter to be on Instagram and didn’t permit it. So she didn’t have a cellphone that had Instagram on it. And, over a comparatively brief interval of only a few weeks, this guardian felt, or the daughter principally felt like she was shut out from her relationship along with her greatest good friend as a result of her good friend needed her to be on Instagram, liking her posts, and interacting along with her like different associates had been.

So this can be a actual concern and [has] an actual impression on youngsters’ lives. And I believe we have to have numerous compassion and understanding for the place that they’re in. As a result of that’s a extremely troublesome circumstance to be in in case you really feel like your greatest good friend is utilizing these applied sciences and eager to work together with them, and also you’re not in a position to as a 16-year-old, that’s actually troublesome. All human beings need to be included. That’s one other fundamental human trait. And as everyone knows, since we’ve all been youngsters ourselves, that impulse is very robust and vital in the course of the teenage years. And I’d say much less in even tween years, as nicely. So, being excluded from a context the place most of your mates are collaborating and interacting is not any small factor. And it’s positively one thing that we have to think about as we take into consideration what the most effective response is as dad and mom.

That’s a framework for a way I give it some thought. And once more, that is for me, for us, for a lot of of our associates, and my sufferers and folks [who] I talked to about this; it’s a transferring goal. It’s one thing that must be reevaluated virtually consistently. I [don’t] suppose it must be the form of factor the place you provide you with a coverage and simply implement it and neglect about it. It’s far more dynamic than that, and the circumstances are sometimes altering. So I’m going to present you some concepts and suggestions and share a few of the applied sciences, satirically, that we use to restrict know-how entry. And the ultimate caveat will probably be this can be a dwelling, respiration set of ideas and pointers, and I’ll positively revisit it sooner or later as issues proceed to evolve for us.

The primary precept is pretty easy, however I’m shocked by how typically it appears to be ignored, which is for folks to be accountable for your youngsters’ entry to screens and know-how. I consider that unrestricted, limitless display entry, particularly when that display is related to the web, and there aren’t any boundaries on what apps will be put in, is a recipe for catastrophe. I believe we have now loads of analysis to assist this. We all know that that’s even true for adults. Many people wrestle to restrict our personal use of those applied sciences, and even these of us who perceive what the downsides are nonetheless wrestle. After which while you give youngsters and youngsters that form of unrestricted entry, primary, they might first not have the identical concepts concerning the harms that may come from these applied sciences. So they don’t seem to be essentially even beginning with the idea that they need to restrict them. And quantity two, they’ve the unbelievable social pull that I simply talked about to be utilizing them. And quantity three, their willpower and different useful resource[s], inner sources for limiting their entry, controlling their very own habits are sometimes far much less developed than these sorts of sources will be in adults.

For all these causes, I believe that giving youngsters unrestricted entry is a large mistake, and it’s actually setting them up and setting you up for failure and numerous issues down the road. So the primary precept is to be accountable for entry, and there are other ways to do that. One, in fact, is to not give your youngsters their very own gadgets within the first place, like telephones or tablets, and solely permit them to make use of yours at sure occasions and for sure intervals that you simply designate. Now, this has some downsides, in fact, particularly as youngsters become old. You must be very a lot concerned and in management, and there will be numerous energy struggles round that. You additionally could not need your youngsters [on] your gadgets and probably opening [and] studying your emails or textual content messages or issues like that. So I believe that this explicit technique can work for very younger youngsters. [However], I’d additionally argue that very younger youngsters shouldn’t actually have a lot display entry in any respect, notably unsupervised display entry. However when youngsters become old, in lots of instances, it’s going to make extra sense for them to have their very own system, no matter that is perhaps. However to make use of, once more, right here’s the irony, know-how, notably software program, to manage and restrict their entry to these gadgets.

Software program to Management Gadget Entry

Let me give a selected instance in our household. Our daughter is 10 [years old] on the time of this recording, 10 and a half; she doesn’t have her personal cellphone but, though she would very very similar to to have one. And he or she probably gained’t have her personal cellphone till she’s 15 or 16. Once more, this places us within the absolute minority. Some would name us Neo-Luddites, nevertheless it’s a alternative we’ve made primarily based on consideration of most of the variables that I discussed earlier within the recording. She does have her personal iPad, and we use an app referred to as OurPact that enables us to set limits on the general period of time that she will spend on the system. And in addition what apps can be utilized, whether or not she will obtain new apps herself; she can’t. Whether or not she will do in-app purchases, she can’t. And a number of other different variables. So it’s a reasonably highly effective app. It’s not good; I’ve some quibbles with it. However I’ve checked out and used nearly all the same apps, and I hold coming again to utilizing OurPact for this function. So you possibly can set it up. For instance, let’s say you need to give your youngsters a half-hour [or] an hour of display entry a day or two hours of display entry a day. You are able to do that. You may even have totally different limits on the weekends versus in the course of the week. You too can block out sure hours. So let’s say you don’t need them accessing the iPad within the morning once they’re preparing for varsity, and perhaps you need to set blackout hours at evening, so like after 8: 00 p.m., there’s no entry till the next day after faculty at 3: 00 p.m., or no matter you’re going to do.

It’s very simple to try this with OurPact. After which from there, you possibly can configure what apps they’ve entry to. And that may even be performed for particular occasions a day. So you might resolve, for instance, to have solely sure apps obtainable within the morning, or on the weekend, or after faculty or what have you ever. So, [it’s a] fairly particular set of controls. There [are] additionally now built-in controls in iOS and possibly Android. I’m not an Android person, so I don’t know a lot about it. However I assume at this level that they’ve the same perform. In iOS, that is referred to as Display Time. And you should utilize this for your self to manage or restrict your personal display time; you may as well use it in your youngsters. And we use each. It’s a little bit difficult, [and] I’m not even certain I can clarify it right here. However there are options which can be obtainable in Display Time that aren’t obtainable in OurPact and vice versa. So we ended up cobbling collectively an answer the place we use each, and it really works fairly nicely. It was numerous trial and error for us, and there are heaps and plenty of variables, which is, once more, why I can’t actually clarify it intimately right here. However Display Time, for instance, permits us to restrict total teams of apps. And I’ve discovered that in some instances, the time-limiting issue works a little bit bit higher than it does with OurPact.

One vital factor to notice is that for both of those apps to work nicely, the gadgets have to be related to the web as a result of that’s the way it calls again to the guardian system. So with OurPact, you’ll have it put in on the kid’s system, and then you definately’ll have an app in your system. And you may management all of the entry settings out of your system and from the kid’s system; that’s the way it calls again to the web, I believe, to implement the boundaries. And if it’s not related to the web, then there’s no restrict, and this can be a draw back of the app, and I’ve written [to] them about it. But it surely appears to be a limitation in the way it’s programmed. And this could come up, like let’s say you’re on a protracted drive, and also you solely need your child to have the ability to watch a film for a pair [of] hours, and then you definately need them to do one thing else for the rest of the drive. Until that iPad has a mobile connection that enables it to be related when you’re driving, then that restrict is not going to [be enforced], principally. Your child will be capable to proceed utilizing the iPad till you get again to someplace the place there’s an web connection. In order that’s one thing to pay attention to. [A] workaround is getting a mobile connection for that system, and I believe Display Time does a greater job of that. It looks as if typically the restrict will nonetheless be enforced, even when there’s not an web connection. However to be trustworthy, I haven’t been in a position to totally determine that out but. It looks as if typically it really works, and typically it doesn’t. However between each of those instruments, you possibly can have numerous fine-grained management over what your youngsters are accessing and for a way lengthy.

Consciousness of Gadget Actions with Potential Destructive Influence

The second precept is to manage your youngsters’ entry to the web and sure apps. Not all on-line actions are equal in the case of their potential damaging impression on youngsters. Streaming music, for instance, or taking photographs or organizing photographs are far totally different when it comes to how they have an effect on youngsters than utilizing Instagram or TikTok. Plenty of the research we’ve seen and work from individuals like Jonathan Haidt and even Fb’s personal analysis has proven that there are uniquely dangerous results of social media like Instagram and TikTok that notably impression tween and teenage ladies as a result of they plug into the robust want for belonging that I discussed earlier. And youngsters can begin to manage their lives round getting likes for what they submit, and in the event that they don’t get likes, it deeply impacts their vanity. And that’s a lot worse and so totally different than taking footage, listening to music, and even texting. In order that’s the very first thing to pay attention to. We’re not speaking about common restriction to all applied sciences in the identical manner. It is sensible to limit entry to these applied sciences, which current the best menace and may trigger the best hurt.

So once more, apps like OurPact that I simply talked about after which Display Time, which is constructed into iOS, can each present entry to and restrict entry to sure apps. And I believe it’s a extremely good concept to make use of these instruments because of this. Alongside the identical traces, OurPact and Display Time can even block your youngster from buying and downloading new apps from the App Retailer, which you positively need to do. As a result of in any other case, your youngsters [are] simply going to work round this beautiful shortly. Most children are savvy with know-how, and in the event that they’re in a position to get on there and obtain no matter apps they need and use these apps or do in-app purchases, then no matter efforts you’ve [made] to forestall that from taking place will probably be moot.

Alternate options to Well-liked Smartphones

Another choice for controlling entry to the web and sure apps is to purchase one thing like a Gabb cellphone or a Gabb watch. This can be a firm that has created telephones and watches which can be particularly designed for youths. These gadgets restrict the variety of contacts {that a} child might have. So, for instance, with the Gabb watch, they will solely have 10 contacts; they will’t add new contacts. So that’s safer. It prevents numerous stuff from taking place that you simply may not need to occur. There’s additionally a mode on the Gabb watch the place the one factor that the kid can do is to name an emergency quantity that you simply designate, which may very well be your personal quantity [or] your companion’s quantity. And when it’s in that mode, it features principally as a watch and it’s an emergency system. And you may set hours for utilization. So let’s say you don’t need your child utilizing the watch in the course of the day whereas they’re in school. You may set it in order that they will solely have the total use of it from like 3: 00 p.m. to eight: 00 p.m. or one thing day by day. After which, the cellphone has extra performance than the watch. It’s received music; it’s received extra contacts. They will ship textual content messages, [and] they will make calls. However they can not set up Instagram and different social media apps on the cellphone. It’s simply not attainable to try this with the Gabb cellphone. So this has change into a reasonably in style possibility for lots of fogeys.

And the watch can be a preferred possibility for youthful youngsters. Whereas within the case the place you don’t essentially need your youngster having full entry to a cellphone but, however you do need them to have the ability to make calls, which you are able to do with the Gabb watch to the ten contacts which can be preloaded that the dad and mom can load, and to have the ability to ship easy emoji-based textual content messages or pre-configured messages. So you could have a set of pre-configured messages you can decide and write and cargo into the watch. So that they may very well be like “I’m on my manner house” or “are you able to come decide me up” or one thing like that. After which the child can simply select from these pre-configured messages. After which the child can even document a voice memo or voice message that will probably be despatched to you as a textual content message, however it’s going to present up as an audio recording. So I believe that’s a extremely nice starter possibility.

We’re once more, on the time of this recording, contemplating that for our 10-year-old. We’re not prepared for a cellphone, even a Gabb cellphone for her. However we’re contemplating a watch, and there’s numerous controls and I believe [it] offers a few of the profit[s] of with the ability to take part in social interplay. A few of her associates have already got telephones. Actually, numerous them have watches or issues like that, and she or he desires to have the ability to name them or talk with them. And after I suppose again alone childhood and my spouse, we each speak about this. By the point we had been 10 or 11, we had been utilizing our landlines to name associates. And we had been in a position to talk with them in that manner. Most individuals now don’t have landlines, and that’s actually not an possibility. So if we wish our children to have the ability to name their associates and talk with them in that manner, then one thing like a Gabb watch, which allows that however doesn’t permit most of the extra dangerous facets of know-how for youthful youngsters, like entry to social media, that could be a extremely good compromise for lots of various dad and mom and children.

How A lot Time Ought to You Enable Your Child to Interact with the Display?

The final precept or query is simply merely how a lot time do you have to permit your child to be engaged with the display? This can be a very private alternative. And, in fact, it will depend on all of the variables that we talked about earlier than. And in case you ask 10 specialists, psychologists, and individuals who examine this and write about it and speak about it quite a bit, you’re going to get 10 totally different solutions. So there’s nothing common right here. And once more, I believe it relies upon quite a bit on the youngsters’ temperament. The analysis is fairly clear that younger youngsters underneath the age of two ought to probably not have any display time in any respect. So all this Child Mozart stuff, and typically after I exit to a restaurant, and I see a household with a one-year-old, propped up on a excessive chair with a cellphone on their little tray in entrance of them, I cringe as a result of there’s numerous proof that means that that’s not helpful and is dangerous for the neurodevelopment, mind growth of youngsters that age.

As youngsters begin to become old, the vary of potential display time that specialists recommend will get broader and broader once more, relying on who you take heed to. In our case, we actually need our daughter to be spending as a lot time interacting with the actual bodily world as attainable, which implies being exterior, staying energetic, [and] taking part in with associates in individual. After which issues like studying books, making artwork, [and] taking part in music. We really feel that these sorts of actions are greatest for her mind growth, for her social growth, [and] for her growth as a human being. We wish her to have an expertise of life that’s primarily unmediated by know-how. We wish her to have time for reverie and contemplation. We wish her to really feel bored as a result of as I’ve simply talked about earlier than and written about earlier than, boredom is definitely a precondition for creativity and innovation. With the ability to tolerate these moments the place you don’t know what to do, you’re not engaged in a specific exercise, and also you begin to really feel that sensation that we consult with as boredom, a few of the richest and most unpredictable experiences can come out of that.

And one of many issues that considerations me most about these applied sciences that we have now entry to, for adults and children, is that if we need to, we will fully keep away from that have. These experiences of boredom, these quiet moments the place we’d simply gaze out the window, and we go into that default mode community the place we’re unconsciously reviewing our lives and our experiences, and that’s producing new concepts and new views. I believe that form of time is completely important to being human, and I’m involved that there are total generations now which can be being raised with these applied sciences, which may basically fully obliterate that point. So let’s say you’re in line on the retailer, and also you is perhaps in a state of affairs the place you’d have these sorts of moments, however you possibly can simply whip out your cellphone and see what’s new. Equally, in case you’re using in a automobile, like many people did after we had been youngsters simply searching the window, at this level, so many youngsters are simply watching a video or on their cellphone within the automobile. Actually anytime there’s any feeling of discomfort or simply area at multi functional’s life, we will have a look at our cellphone. And I believe that the harms of this will not be even totally understood but and gained’t be for a while. However I’m fairly alarmed by it. And I see it in each adults and children.

I used to be simply at a restaurant the opposite day, and there was a household, and the whole household was on their telephones for the whole time. And there have been moments the place somebody would put their cellphone down after which form of go searching, see that different individuals had been on their telephones, and decide it up once more. There have been moments the place you might see somebody going by means of [an] inner, or at the very least I used to be projecting that they had been going by means of an inner course of the place they’re like, “Okay, I in all probability shouldn’t be utilizing my cellphone as a lot.” So that they put the cellphone down. However then, a pair [of] moments cross, some discomfort arises, [and] they decide up the cellphone once more. And I don’t imply to evaluate or to name this explicit household out as a result of all of us wrestle with this, together with me. But it surely’s an indicator for me of the place we’re at on the planet that we’re dwelling in. And I believe that if we had been, let’s say, to move ourselves from 30 or 40 years in the past, previous to the arrival of those applied sciences, and journey into the longer term, after which simply be a passive observer standing in that restaurant what’s taking place, we’d have been horrified and shocked. It might have been like a foul sci-fi film, the place we see that that’s the character of human interplay now, and even simply [our] relationship with ourselves is totally interfered with by these applied sciences.

And I really feel like we’ve been the proverbial frogs within the boiling water, the place these modifications have taken place shortly however not in a single day. I don’t suppose we’re even totally conscious of how dramatically they’ve interfered with our lives. And in case you consider that thought experiment the place you go from 30 or 40 years in the past, these of us who had been sufficiently old to recollect what life was like earlier than these applied sciences, and also you quick ahead shortly, it might be a stunning change. So we positively fall on the top of the spectrum of limiting entry to those applied sciences and wanting our daughter to have important intervals of time the place she’s not interacting with them in any respect. And that’s true on a day-to-day foundation. But it surely’s additionally true on a extra prolonged timeframe. I’ve talked about this quite a bit earlier than, however we do digital, full screen-free occasions as a household. We’ve been worse on this within the pandemic, however previous to that, Sundays had been sacred screen-free days for everyone. After which we’d do extra prolonged intervals; in the summertime, we’ll typically do a multi-day rafting journey or a backcountry journey the place we’re simply in nature, and we’re not interacting with telephones or screens in any respect.

And I can let you know that even when our daughter was youthful than she is now, on the finish of these journeys, she would specific that she didn’t need to go away these environments. So even at a younger age, [she] was in a position to expertise how totally different life feels while you’re in that form of very important important relationship to the bodily world, to nature, to different individuals. And he or she would say issues like, “Poppa, I don’t need to go away the river,” which is a reasonably highly effective expression of our personal innate information of what’s good for us. And I believe it’s actually vital to carve out screen-free occasions each day, extra prolonged intervals on a weekly or month-to-month foundation, after which, longer chunks of time perhaps on an annual or semiannual foundation, the place your youngsters and you aren’t experiencing life mediated by a display as a result of it has change into such a dominant expertise for many of us.

All proper, so these are my present ideas. I hope this has been useful. And once more, I need to emphasize how this can be a dwelling respiration course of. We’ve modified and proceed to vary our method. For instance, proper now, we’re probably not doing a lot display time in any respect each day for our daughter. We’ve got a household film evening on Saturday nights, and she or he’s received perhaps a half-hour, an hour on one or two different days in the course of the week, relying on the week. However we’ve had different occasions the place she had an hour a day, and will watch a film or do another stuff. However we’re simply consistently monitoring it, seeing the way it’s working for her, for our household after which making modifications accordingly. So I’d positively invite you to do the identical; it does require extra thought course of, extra dialogue. It turns into a bigger matter of dialog. However I believe it’s actually vital to try this.

When to Focus on Accountable Use of Tech with Your Children

The second factor about that that I’d recommend is together with your youngster, as soon as they’re sufficiently old, in these conversations. We’ve talked quite a bit with our daughter concerning the impacts of those applied sciences. She’s even watched The Social Dilemma; she was a bit younger for it when she noticed it, however we actually needed her to see it. I’ve talked to her about my work and research about know-how and display habit. She’s very nicely conscious of all of that stuff. And that doesn’t imply that she nonetheless doesn’t need to use these applied sciences. In fact, that’s not going to vary her needs. All that stuff is working on an mental degree; she understands it on an mental degree, however her needs and impulses for these applied sciences are coming from a decrease a part of the mind and a part of very deep human needs to work together with different individuals socially and be a part of one thing, and so forth. So don’t anticipate to elucidate these items to your youngsters after which have them rapidly change their habits. That doesn’t work for many adults, so we will’t anticipate it to work for youths.

However, I believe it is very important embody them within the dialog. And I believe you’ll discover that while you do this, you’ll hear your youngsters in varied contexts mentioning, perhaps to different individuals and even to you, issues that you simply’ve shared with them up to now, and that’s an indicator that they’re taking it in in some kind or capability. All proper. That’s it for in the present day, everybody. Thanks for listening. Please hold sending in your inquiries to ChrisKresser.com/podcastquestion, and we’ll discuss to you subsequent time.

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